Discussion:
So Tell Me About the Dark Side...
(too old to reply)
Artemisia
2006-06-14 13:17:31 UTC
Permalink
Bored over this past weekend, I started googling on recumbents, and
became fascinated by some folding recumbent trikes, made by ICE.

It seems really cool to be able to watch the world go by from what looks
like a deck chair! And always to have a comfortable seat on one's
travels. But still to be getting exercise, and my abdos sure could use
some firming.

And then there's all that stability, think of actually being able to
look behind me or take my hands off handlebars to signal!

And I like the terminology. "Bent" suits me fine, as does "Dark Side".

So I want to know what's wrong with them (apart from cost and weight, of
course). I'm puzzled by these handlebars under the seat. How do you turn
a recumbent trike? Do you fall out at every bend (I heard of someone in
Cambridge who did, though that was an upright trike)?

Is it very hard to get up hills? I live in a hilly district. Can they
get through doors or between bollards?

I'm not that much of a speed freak, so the fact that all the speed
records for human powered vehicles are held by faired bents is not of
immediate concern. I'm more afraid of not being able to control the
vehicle beyond a certain speed. But then it seems they are easier to brake?

Maintenance could be a hassle. I've never seen a bent in France. My
colleague tells me she has only ever seen them under circus clowns.

I'm divided on the image issue. I have a reputation as a nut-case which
I'm keen to keep up, but France is a nation very hostile to script
breakers and I'm limit as it is with my Childfreedom. A bent on a
_French_ road might get more attention than I really want. Besides
which, it might even interest the police - it seems the status of
tricycles is ambiguous here and according to some opinions they are not
allowed on roads. Moreover, some of those bents really do look
uncomfortably like wheel-chairs, and my superstitious side would feel it
unlucky to send out a signal of being disabled.

The use that most draws me would be for long distance touring, but for
that, the contraption would have to be portable and planeable. I
discovered, when touring with Flyzipper, that I give up after about 35km
not so much because I am tired, as because I start getting sore at seat
and wrist. They say this doesn't happen on bents. On a more daily basis,
it is probably less practical than my beloved bike for local commuting?
Although I do like the idea of being able to sit out the traffic lights,
sunning myself or reading Trollope.

I'd be keen to try such a machine and see how it feels. I doubt that
would be possible here, but is there somewhere in the Southern UK where
I might come for a test ride? I'd particularly like to be able to rent
one for a while to see about how liveable it is all around.

Finally, what are people's opinions here of what constitutes essentials
as well as nec plus ultra luxuries in a bent trike? What are dream
machines in this category? Mine would have to have a good rack system
for luggage, be easily foldable, have very reliable brakes, why not
hydraulic discs, have a good gear range and easy shifting, perhaps a
Rohloff, perhaps have modular electric assist that can be added or
subtracted as needs develop or disappear...

At the moment I'm only dreaming, so I'm not even thinking about price. I
suppose up to about $5000, but too much more would cost me the sacrifice
of too many vacations.

EFR
Ile de France
Andy Leighton
2006-06-14 13:37:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Artemisia
Bored over this past weekend, I started googling on recumbents, and
became fascinated by some folding recumbent trikes, made by ICE.
As have most of us.
Post by Artemisia
So I want to know what's wrong with them (apart from cost and weight, of
course).
For me it is the cost factor and space. I would have to rearrange sheds
and stuff in order to find space.
Post by Artemisia
I'm puzzled by these handlebars under the seat. How do you turn
a recumbent trike? Do you fall out at every bend (I heard of someone in
Cambridge who did, though that was an upright trike)?
Upright trikes can be less stable in sharp turns. Recumbents have a much
lower centre of gravity and shouldn't turn over in normal use.
Post by Artemisia
The use that most draws me would be for long distance touring, but for
that, the contraption would have to be portable and planeable.
The ICE stuff (and some others) can be folded so it should be easy to
fold it for the plane journey (or a train/car journey). The folded package
isn't as compact and definitely not as light as a folding bike so isn't
really suitable for commuting but I would guess it is absolutely fine
for travelling to the start of a tour.
--
Andy Leighton => ***@azaal.plus.com
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_
Alan Braggins
2006-06-14 15:17:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Leighton
Post by Artemisia
I'm puzzled by these handlebars under the seat. How do you turn
a recumbent trike? Do you fall out at every bend (I heard of someone in
Cambridge who did, though that was an upright trike)?
Upright trikes can be less stable in sharp turns. Recumbents have a much
lower centre of gravity and shouldn't turn over in normal use.
Upright trikes are notorious for confusing bicyclists, because they
feel very similar to start with, but steer in a completely different way,
so the poor cyclist is desperately trying to get the trike to lean over
to turn, and it doesn't.
At least so I've read - I haven't seen it happen, or tried an upright myself.

A recumbent trike feels different, and the same problem doesn't seem to
happen. (I have tried recumbent trikes, and seen other people doing so
for the first time with no trouble.)
Peter Clinch
2006-06-14 15:33:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Braggins
A recumbent trike feels different, and the same problem doesn't seem to
happen. (I have tried recumbent trikes, and seen other people doing so
for the first time with no trouble.)
I've not tried an upright trike since I was... *much* younger. The rest
of my family tried one at Centre Parcs that a pal had rented and
couldn't do it at all, for the reasons given.

I've found on my brief acquaintance with 'bent trikes that there are
differences, but not hugely problematical ones. On a heavily cambered
road I found having to actively steer to go straight ahead /very/ odd at
first, but I soon got use to it (effect enhanced by the transmission
setup on a Kettwiesel delta).

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net ***@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
Artemisia
2006-06-15 06:18:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Clinch
I've found on my brief acquaintance with 'bent trikes that there are
differences, but not hugely problematical ones. On a heavily cambered
road I found having to actively steer to go straight ahead /very/ odd at
first, but I soon got use to it (effect enhanced by the transmission
setup on a Kettwiesel delta).
I can't remember, is your own bent bi or tri?

EFR
Ile de France
Peter Clinch
2006-06-15 07:38:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Artemisia
I can't remember, is your own bent bi or tri?
Mine is a bike (an HP Velotechnik Streetmachine GT). I've ridden a few
trikes but to be honest there isn't anything screaming out to me as
better than a bike and some things seem worse, but as you can gather
from the folk that choose trikes and who happen to find them more fun
that's something for you to decide.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net ***@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
Simon Brooke
2006-06-14 16:45:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Braggins
Post by Andy Leighton
Post by Artemisia
I'm puzzled by these handlebars under the seat. How do you turn
a recumbent trike? Do you fall out at every bend (I heard of someone
in Cambridge who did, though that was an upright trike)?
Upright trikes can be less stable in sharp turns. Recumbents have a
much lower centre of gravity and shouldn't turn over in normal use.
Upright trikes are notorious for confusing bicyclists, because they
feel very similar to start with, but steer in a completely different
way, so the poor cyclist is desperately trying to get the trike to lean
over to turn, and it doesn't.
At least so I've read - I haven't seen it happen, or tried an upright myself.
My parents had friends who were racing tricycle tandemists, and my dad
certainly managed to capsize one of their solo trikes when taking it out
for a spin.
--
***@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; making jokes about dyslexia isn't big, it isn't clever and
;; it isn't furry.
Tim Hall
2006-06-14 22:29:34 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 17:45:09 +0100, Simon Brooke
Post by Simon Brooke
Post by Alan Braggins
Upright trikes are notorious for confusing bicyclists, because they
feel very similar to start with, but steer in a completely different
way, so the poor cyclist is desperately trying to get the trike to lean
over to turn, and it doesn't.
At least so I've read - I haven't seen it happen, or tried an upright myself.
My parents had friends who were racing tricycle tandemists, and my dad
certainly managed to capsize one of their solo trikes when taking it out
for a spin.
But you sail don't you Simon? Piece of cake. Just yell "ready about"
as you go round a corner and your stoker hangs out over the back
wheel.

Tim
ian henden
2006-06-15 06:34:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Hall
On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 17:45:09 +0100, Simon Brooke
[..]
Post by Tim Hall
Post by Simon Brooke
My parents had friends who were racing tricycle tandemists, and my dad
certainly managed to capsize one of their solo trikes when taking it out
for a spin.
But you sail don't you Simon? Piece of cake. Just yell "ready about"
as you go round a corner and your stoker hangs out over the back
wheel.
Now ther's a thought .... three wheel grid with a mast and sail making its
way down Shirley High Street....
Rob Morley
2006-06-15 00:40:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Braggins
Post by Andy Leighton
Post by Artemisia
I'm puzzled by these handlebars under the seat. How do you turn
a recumbent trike? Do you fall out at every bend (I heard of someone in
Cambridge who did, though that was an upright trike)?
Upright trikes can be less stable in sharp turns. Recumbents have a much
lower centre of gravity and shouldn't turn over in normal use.
Upright trikes are notorious for confusing bicyclists, because they
feel very similar to start with, but steer in a completely different way,
so the poor cyclist is desperately trying to get the trike to lean over
to turn, and it doesn't.
At least so I've read - I haven't seen it happen, or tried an upright myself.
The thing I found about about conventional trikes is that even if you're
consciously trying to steer them around corners they won't listen unless
you let the weight transfer to the outside wheel, which is
counterintuitive to bicyclists. They are easy to get up on two wheels
if you want to, and can be ridden just like an ordinary two wheeler :-)
Post by Alan Braggins
A recumbent trike feels different, and the same problem doesn't seem to
happen. (I have tried recumbent trikes, and seen other people doing so
for the first time with no trouble.)
What struck me about the early Trice I rode was that I was really aware
of the road camber, and the rocking caused by the front wheels going
over bumps. I suppose you get used to it after a while.
Peter Clinch
2006-06-14 13:53:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Artemisia
Bored over this past weekend, I started googling on recumbents, and
became fascinated by some folding recumbent trikes, made by ICE.
It seems really cool to be able to watch the world go by from what looks
like a deck chair! And always to have a comfortable seat on one's
travels. But still to be getting exercise, and my abdos sure could use
some firming.
It is worth noting that deckchairs come in at different heights and this
will affect one's ability to watch the world go by, as you go by the
world. The ICE trikes are relatively low compared to most recumbnet
bikes, for example. This is far from being a general deal-breaker, but
it is worth taking into account.
Post by Artemisia
And then there's all that stability, think of actually being able to
look behind me or take my hands off handlebars to signal!
There's nothing intrinsic to recumbents concerning stability. A Trice
gets stability from 3 wheels, and you don't need to go 'bent to get
that. And since I've watched Roos cycle along quite happily on her
hybrid not only with no hands on the bars but taking a jacket off and
tying it around her waist, I know it's also the case that 3 wheels
aren't necessary for this either! In fact I think most trikes require
more handlebar input than many 2 wheel uprights.
Post by Artemisia
And I like the terminology. "Bent" suits me fine, as does "Dark Side".
Never mind that, the red light sabres are the cool bit! ;-)
Post by Artemisia
So I want to know what's wrong with them (apart from cost and weight, of
course). I'm puzzled by these handlebars under the seat.
How do you turn a recumbent trike?
Same way you turn any other trike... using the steering! Nothing
puzzling about bars under the seat, they've got to go somewhere...
Post by Artemisia
Do you fall out at every bend (I heard of someone in
Cambridge who did, though that was an upright trike)?
It's /possible/ (if you try!) but unlikely. A "tadpole" configuration
like a Trice works against this, as does the low centre of mass, but you
can make sure by simply leaning into the bend, just like on a bike. The
trick is remembering that leaning has no steering effect on its own!
Post by Artemisia
Is it very hard to get up hills? I live in a hilly district.
Depends on the gearing. On a trike you can have stupidly low gearing
that will let you get up practically anything you can maintain traction
on. Just make sure you specify low gearing. ICE are based in a
particularly hilly bit of the West Country, so it makes sense that their
products will "do" hills!
Post by Artemisia
Can they get through doors or between bollards?
Depends on the particular door or bollards... Note that ICE do various
different track widths, and the narrow track models will have fewer
problems with this. To start with, measure any you know you'll want to
get by regularly and compare to the track width. NT models will be
slightly less stable in fast cornering, but if you lean they should
still be okay.
Post by Artemisia
I'm not that much of a speed freak, so the fact that all the speed
records for human powered vehicles are held by faired bents is not of
immediate concern. I'm more afraid of not being able to control the
vehicle beyond a certain speed. But then it seems they are easier to brake?
Just ram on the anchors. You'll have to try /really/ hard to go over
the bars... There isn't any particular issue with either trikes or
'bents for speed handling as long as they're decently implemented, and
by all accounts I've come across Tricen are.
Post by Artemisia
Maintenance could be a hassle. I've never seen a bent in France. My
colleague tells me she has only ever seen them under circus clowns.
IME clowns prefer unicycles or tall bikes.

But for the most part maintenance is really quite standard. The
non-standard bits are the frame and the seat, and they don't really need
any to speak of. Brakes and transmission are standard items, and any
bike shop should be able to deal with them if you prefer not to do it
yourself.
Post by Artemisia
The use that most draws me would be for long distance touring, but for
that, the contraption would have to be portable and planeable. I
discovered, when touring with Flyzipper, that I give up after about 35km
not so much because I am tired, as because I start getting sore at seat
and wrist. They say this doesn't happen on bents. On a more daily basis,
it is probably less practical than my beloved bike for local commuting?
Probably... I use a Brompton folder as my general hack bike because it
has a lot of convenience points over my 'bent.
For porting it, a trike is /generally/ worse than a bike as there's more
of it, but the folding models from ICE and Greenspeed should fit in a
case. Weight limits will be your main enemy, I'd think. And you'll
probably need to do a bit of reassembly and minor mechanical tweaking to
put them back into road-shape. If you're not happy with a spanner, or
meeting someone who is, that could be a problem.
Post by Artemisia
I'd be keen to try such a machine and see how it feels. I doubt that
would be possible here, but is there somewhere in the Southern UK where
I might come for a test ride? I'd particularly like to be able to rent
one for a while to see about how liveable it is all around.
See http://www.ice.hpv.co.uk/contact_dealers.htm for Trice dealers,
several in the S (or south-ish) of England. (There is one French dealer
in there).
Post by Artemisia
Finally, what are people's opinions here of what constitutes essentials
as well as nec plus ultra luxuries in a bent trike? What are dream
machines in this category? Mine would have to have a good rack system
for luggage, be easily foldable, have very reliable brakes, why not
hydraulic discs, have a good gear range and easy shifting, perhaps a
Rohloff, perhaps have modular electric assist that can be added or
subtracted as needs develop or disappear...
All of those should be possible on a Trice. For the electric side of it
Kinetics (kinetics.org.uk) might be worth getting in touch with, as Ben
does both Tricen and Heinzman motors.

The dream machine is perhaps the ultra-light custom Trice they have as
an R&D project. If it was in production it would be bonkers expensive.
Beyond that, it would depend on your particular dream (Monster!
Monster! Monster! ;-)), and Trice probably have something to suit yours.

Also look at Greenspeeds, noting the dealership at http://www.wrhpv.com/

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net ***@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
David Martin
2006-06-14 14:05:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Clinch
The dream machine is perhaps the ultra-light custom Trice they have as
an R&D project. If it was in production it would be bonkers expensive.
They'd sell you the prototype for a minimum of 10K and still make a
loss.. I saw it at the York Rallye last year (with Mr Senior of this
parish). Probably not EFR's cup of tea as it is very very low (and
supposedly very very fast). However, you can pick it up and put it on a
car roof rack with one hand.. And this is a fully sdjustable
dismantleable trice. If they made it to fit it could be a kilo
lighter..

..d
Dave Larrington
2006-06-14 14:41:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Martin
Post by Peter Clinch
The dream machine is perhaps the ultra-light custom Trice they have as
an R&D project. If it was in production it would be bonkers expensive.
They'd sell you the prototype for a minimum of 10K and still make a
loss.. I saw it at the York Rallye last year (with Mr Senior of this
parish). Probably not EFR's cup of tea as it is very very low (and
supposedly very very fast). However, you can pick it up and put it on a
car roof rack with one hand.. And this is a fully sdjustable
dismantleable trice. If they made it to fit it could be a kilo
lighter..
I was contemplating asking to borrow it for the French Ride next year,
but I suspect that I'd break it before reaching Brest...
--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
und keine Eie.
dkahn400
2006-06-14 15:02:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Larrington
I was contemplating asking to borrow it for the French Ride next year,
but I suspect that I'd break it before reaching Brest...
You're too big for such delicate equipment obviously. Wonder if they'd
lend it to moi? I hardly ever break very much.
--
Dave...
Phil Cook
2006-06-14 14:10:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Clinch
Post by Artemisia
I'd be keen to try such a machine and see how it feels. I doubt that
would be possible here, but is there somewhere in the Southern UK where
I might come for a test ride? I'd particularly like to be able to rent
one for a while to see about how liveable it is all around.
See http://www.ice.hpv.co.uk/contact_dealers.htm for Trice dealers,
several in the S (or south-ish) of England. (There is one French dealer
in there).
The dealers in Holland and London or Forest Row in the UK will be
closer to Paris than Montpellier though :-(
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"
Alan Braggins
2006-06-14 15:33:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Clinch
Post by Artemisia
Finally, what are people's opinions here of what constitutes essentials
as well as nec plus ultra luxuries in a bent trike? What are dream
machines in this category? Mine would have to have a good rack system
for luggage, be easily foldable, have very reliable brakes, why not
hydraulic discs, have a good gear range and easy shifting, perhaps a
Rohloff, perhaps have modular electric assist that can be added or
subtracted as needs develop or disappear...
All of those should be possible on a Trice. For the electric side of it
Kinetics (kinetics.org.uk) might be worth getting in touch with, as Ben
does both Tricen and Heinzman motors.
Fitting both a Heinzmann hub motor and a Rohloff onto the same trike is
going to be tricky though. Not impossible, but adding something like
a G-Boxx-like mid-drive is going to be expensive even by Rohloff equipped
trike standards. Having a non-hub motor is probably a better bet, but still
non-trivial to add.

(On a bike you could just put the motor in the front wheel.)
dkahn400
2006-06-14 15:20:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Artemisia
Bored over this past weekend, I started googling on recumbents, and
became fascinated by some folding recumbent trikes, made by ICE.
A good answer already from Pete Clinch who knows an awful lot about
'bents. You'd have to think very carefully about the undoubted
drawbacks, but if these are not show-stoppers I would have thought a
tadpole trike recumbent would make a lot of sense for someone who a)
has balance problems with two wheels, b) gets pain and discomfort on an
upright, and c) is not afraid of being stared at. Sound like anyone you
know?

As to the legal situation, I think you need to check that out locally.
But trikes have certainly been ridden in the Paris - Brest - Paris. For
the electric option I think Pete's idea of talking to Darth Ben at
Kinetics is a good one at least for a starting point, although his shop
is probably one of the worst options for you from a purely geographical
point of view.

I've only had a brief ride on a Trice, which was configured for someone
much taller than me, but I found it extremely stable and very easy to
steer, and it had impressive stopping power too.
--
Dave...
Alistair Gunn
2006-06-14 15:31:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Artemisia
Bored over this past weekend, I started googling on recumbents, and
became fascinated by some folding recumbent trikes, made by ICE.
As has been said by others, you're not alone in this! I gave some
*serious* consideration to getting either a Trice-QNT or Trice-S earlier
this year, but ended up getting a two-wheeled recumbent (Grasshopper)
instead. Not entirely sure whether that was the best decision yet, but
it seems to be working out for me ... of course, if I'd bought a trike
I'd probably be wondering exactly the same thing at this point!
Post by Artemisia
I'm puzzled by these handlebars under the seat. How do you turn a
recumbent trike?
Underseat steering can limit how tight you can turn, however unless you
make a habit of turning round on narrow roads it shouldn't be a problem.
Post by Artemisia
Do you fall out at every bend (I heard of someone in Cambridge who did,
though that was an upright trike)?
I had a go on a whole bunch of last years (so no rear suspension and
non-foldable) models at the York Cycle Rally last year. I managed to get
a Trice Monster up on two wheels (on purpose I'll concede, I deliberately
leaned slightly the wrong way in a turn!) at about 15mph but it didn't
seem in anyway scary -> just more a case of thinking "hmm, the inside
wheel's lifting ... I'd better lean into the corner a bit".
--
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...
David Martin
2006-06-14 16:02:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alistair Gunn
I had a go on a whole bunch of last years (so no rear suspension and
non-foldable) models at the York Cycle Rally last year. I managed to get
a Trice Monster up on two wheels (on purpose I'll concede, I deliberately
leaned slightly the wrong way in a turn!) at about 15mph but it didn't
seem in anyway scary -> just more a case of thinking "hmm, the inside
wheel's lifting ... I'd better lean into the corner a bit".
I hade a go on the various trice - very easy to lift a wheel with the
right technique on the Q, S and T. A dash of speed and rhythmic
steering at the right frequency will happily 'walk' the two front
wheels alternately. Nowhere near tipping though. the.Mark does a good
two wheel thing on his windcheetah.

..d
Mark McNeill
2006-06-14 16:12:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Martin
Nowhere near tipping though. the.Mark does a good
two wheel thing on his windcheetah.
There's a downhill turn on my commute where, when I'm coming home in the
small hours and there's nobody about, I'll happily lift a wheel in a fun
kind of way (though it wasn't fun the first time I did it).

I've only ever actually tipped the trike when deliberately travelling
downhill and sideways on ice.
--
Mark, UK
"Nothing sets a person up more than having something turn out just the
way it's supposed to be, like falling into a Swiss snowdrift and seeing
a big dog come up with a little cask of brandy round its neck."
the.Mark
2006-06-14 19:51:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark McNeill
Post by David Martin
Nowhere near tipping though. the.Mark does a good
two wheel thing on his windcheetah.
There's a downhill turn on my commute where, when I'm coming
home in the small hours and there's nobody about, I'll happily
lift a wheel in a fun kind of way (though it wasn't fun the
first time I did it).
The first time was a surprise to me, after that I'd occaisionally try
to lift a wheel when cornering.
Post by Mark McNeill
I've only ever actually tipped the trike when deliberately
travelling downhill and sideways on ice.
I've not tipped mine yet, no doubt it'll happen sometime. Sadly not
for a few weeks as it has been packed away while the extension is
being built and there is no way to get it out.
--
Cheers
the.Mark
f***@innercite.com
2006-06-14 20:33:42 UTC
Permalink
I wish you Europeans would stop using lingo that we Americans don't
understand! All right, would somebody please explain the difference
between bollards and bollocks?
wafflycat
2006-06-14 20:39:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@innercite.com
I wish you Europeans would stop using lingo that we Americans don't
understand! All right, would somebody please explain the difference
between bollards and bollocks?
Bollards... examples here - in concrete and metal

http://www.17beechroad.freeserve.co.uk/WarringtonCycleCampaign/facility-of-the-month/
http://www.17beechroad.freeserve.co.uk/WarringtonCycleCampaign/facility-of-the-month/January2005.htm

Bollocks...

Are you male? If so - check in your underwear. Your bollocks are the dangly
objects behind & either side of your err... dangly bit in the middle ;-)

Cheers, helen s
Edward Dolan
2006-06-14 21:26:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by wafflycat
Post by f***@innercite.com
I wish you Europeans would stop using lingo that we Americans don't
understand! All right, would somebody please explain the difference
between bollards and bollocks?
Bollards... examples here - in concrete and metal
http://www.17beechroad.freeserve.co.uk/WarringtonCycleCampaign/facility-of-the-month/
http://www.17beechroad.freeserve.co.uk/WarringtonCycleCampaign/facility-of-the-month/January2005.htm
Bollocks...
Are you male? If so - check in your underwear. Your bollocks are the
dangly objects behind & either side of your err... dangly bit in the
middle ;-)
Cheers, helen s
Here is Helen of the UK behaving like the slut that she is. God, would you
want to know someone like this for any other purpose than fucking her.

A woman who is not saintly is worse than an honest whore. In case Helen does
not know it, ALL men hate whores. So she should strive to elevate her
conversation here on RBM. After all, there are some gentlemen present and
at least one Great Saint (Myself).

Women cyclists should be above reproach at all times. They should model
themselves after Our Blessed Virgin Mary and strive not to be whores and
bitches. Despite everything she may have heard to the contrary, we men do
not really like whores and bitches. We want women to be holy and saintly
like we are.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
ian henden
2006-06-15 06:32:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Dolan
Post by wafflycat
Post by f***@innercite.com
I wish you Europeans would stop using lingo that we Americans don't
understand! All right, would somebody please explain the difference
between bollards and bollocks?
Bollards... examples here - in concrete and metal
http://www.17beechroad.freeserve.co.uk/WarringtonCycleCampaign/facility-of-the-month/
http://www.17beechroad.freeserve.co.uk/WarringtonCycleCampaign/facility-of-the-month/January2005.htm
Bollocks...
Are you male? If so - check in your underwear. Your bollocks are the
dangly objects behind & either side of your err... dangly bit in the
middle ;-)
Cheers, helen s
Here is Helen of the UK behaving like the slut that she is. God, would you
want to know someone like this for any other purpose than fucking her.
[...]

Totally unnecessary. You asked a question: you got a very reasonable
response, Mr Dolan. I think you owe helen s an apology.

---
IanH
Peter Clinch
2006-06-15 08:03:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by ian henden
Totally unnecessary. You asked a question: you got a very reasonable
response, Mr Dolan. I think you owe helen s an apology.
Just another in a /very/ long line of cases of Mr. Ed proving the
utility of killfiles, especially ones with him in them.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net ***@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
Edward Dolan
2006-06-15 20:36:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by ian henden
Totally unnecessary. You asked a question: you got a very reasonable
response, Mr Dolan. I think you owe helen s an apology.
Just another in a /very/ long line of cases of Mr. Ed proving the utility
of killfiles, especially ones with him in them.
Always good to hear from the peanut gallery - of which Peter Clinch of
Dundee, Scotland is a charter member.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
Edward Dolan
2006-06-15 20:33:59 UTC
Permalink
[...]
Post by ian henden
Post by Edward Dolan
Post by wafflycat
Bollocks...
Are you male? If so - check in your underwear. Your bollocks are the
dangly objects behind & either side of your err... dangly bit in the
middle ;-)
Cheers, helen s
Here is Helen of the UK behaving like the slut that she is. God, would
you want to know someone like this for any other purpose than fucking
her.
[...]
Totally unnecessary. You asked a question: you got a very reasonable
response, Mr Dolan. I think you owe helen s an apology.
For Heaven's sakes, I did not ask her any question. Are you insane?

But in any event, no woman is ever owed an apology when she references
matters pertaining to the groin. That's the province strictly of us men. If
Helen had a brain in her stupid head she would know this without me having
to tell her.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
Alan Braggins
2006-06-16 07:46:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Dolan
But in any event, no woman is ever owed an apology when she references
matters pertaining to the groin. That's the province strictly of us men.
I'm all in favour of equal rights for homosexuals, but that's taking
affirmative action too far.
Edward Dolan
2006-06-16 22:00:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Braggins
Post by Edward Dolan
But in any event, no woman is ever owed an apology when she references
matters pertaining to the groin. That's the province strictly of us men.
I'm all in favour of equal rights for homosexuals, but that's taking
affirmative action too far.
It is only the rights of Great Saints like Myself that concern Me. The rest
of mankind is made up of nothing but pygmies and I am only aware of them
when they become pesky - like Helen. Sometimes you just have to swat them
down.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
Tony Raven
2006-06-16 22:11:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Dolan
Post by Alan Braggins
Post by Edward Dolan
But in any event, no woman is ever owed an apology when she references
matters pertaining to the groin. That's the province strictly of us men.
I'm all in favour of equal rights for homosexuals, but that's taking
affirmative action too far.
It is only the rights of Great Saints like Myself that concern Me. The rest
of mankind is made up of nothing but pygmies and I am only aware of them
when they become pesky - like Helen. Sometimes you just have to swat them
down.
I guess then, Alan, that in matters pertaining to his groin only Ed is
involved ;-)
--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci
Edward Dolan
2006-06-16 23:44:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Raven
Post by Edward Dolan
Post by Alan Braggins
Post by Edward Dolan
But in any event, no woman is ever owed an apology when she references
matters pertaining to the groin. That's the province strictly of us men.
I'm all in favour of equal rights for homosexuals, but that's taking
affirmative action too far.
It is only the rights of Great Saints like Myself that concern Me. The
rest of mankind is made up of nothing but pygmies and I am only aware of
them when they become pesky - like Helen. Sometimes you just have to swat
them down.
I guess then, Alan, that in matters pertaining to his groin only Ed is
involved ;-)
Tony Raven ever proves himself the smutty Englishman. No wonder Britain is
no longer Great when it is full of types like him.

Very funny that any Englishman would even mention sex since they have the
world's reputation for being notorious homos. In addition, the cuckolded
Englishman is a stock laughing figure in many a work of literature. If Tony
Raven could read, he would know this and the last thing he would ever
reference is anything having to do with sex.

By the way Tony, old sod, there is more to the groin than your genitals.
Your asshole is also located there and I suggest you get acquainted with
that organ since that pretty much sums up your entire person. Yup, just
another English asshole!

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
Sorni
2006-06-17 00:49:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Dolan
Tony Raven ever proves himself the smutty Englishman. No wonder
Britain is no longer Great when it is full of types like him.
Very funny that any Englishman would even mention sex since they have
the world's reputation for being notorious homos. In addition, the
cuckolded Englishman is a stock laughing figure in many a work of
literature. If Tony Raven could read, he would know this and the last
thing he would ever reference is anything having to do with sex.
By the way Tony, old sod, there is more to the groin than your
genitals. Your asshole is also located there and I suggest you get
acquainted with that organ since that pretty much sums up your entire
person. Yup, just another English asshole!
First Ed post I read in a month, and he's /spot on/! (At least the Tony
parts <eg> )
Tony Raven
2006-06-17 08:17:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Dolan
Tony Raven ever proves himself the smutty Englishman. No wonder Britain is
no longer Great when it is full of types like him.
Very funny that any Englishman would even mention sex since they have the
world's reputation for being notorious homos. In addition, the cuckolded
Englishman is a stock laughing figure in many a work of literature. If Tony
Raven could read, he would know this and the last thing he would ever
reference is anything having to do with sex.
By the way Tony, old sod, there is more to the groin than your genitals.
Your asshole is also located there and I suggest you get acquainted with
that organ since that pretty much sums up your entire person. Yup, just
another English asshole!
Regards,
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
Have a nice day Ed :-)
--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci
wafflycat
2006-06-17 08:33:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Raven
Have a nice day Ed :-)
Mr Dolan is a troll and *any* direct responses to him are what he wants.
Please don't feed the troll: kill-files are a wonderful invention :-)

Cheers, helen s
Tony Raven
2006-06-17 08:44:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by wafflycat
Post by Tony Raven
Have a nice day Ed :-)
Mr Dolan is a troll and *any* direct responses to him are what he wants.
Please don't feed the troll: kill-files are a wonderful invention :-)
Cheers, helen s
I know, I know, <SFX> slapped wrist </SFX> ;-)
--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci
Edward Dolan
2006-06-18 04:33:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by wafflycat
Post by Tony Raven
Have a nice day Ed :-)
Mr Dolan is a troll and *any* direct responses to him are what he wants.
Please don't feed the troll: kill-files are a wonderful invention :-)
Cheers, helen s
Helen, like all women, wants to have her say and then runs and hides from
any consequences. She thinks if someone takes exceptions to her stupidities,
then such a person must be a troll - when all that person is is INTELLIGENT.
So much for this fake masculine Helen character! She does not have
sufficient maleness to take on an adversary.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
Alan Braggins
2006-06-17 21:45:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Dolan
Post by Edward Dolan
matters pertaining to the groin. That's the province strictly of us men.
[...]
Post by Edward Dolan
Very funny that any Englishman would even mention sex since they have the
world's reputation for being notorious homos.
You were the one wanting to keep your groin an exclusively male province.
(Which is fine, so long as you speak only for yourself.)
Edward Dolan
2006-06-18 04:38:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Braggins
Post by Edward Dolan
Post by Edward Dolan
matters pertaining to the groin. That's the province strictly of us men.
[...]
Post by Edward Dolan
Very funny that any Englishman would even mention sex since they have the
world's reputation for being notorious homos.
You were the one wanting to keep your groin an exclusively male province.
(Which is fine, so long as you speak only for yourself.)
We all know what Tony Raven was up to. I merely shot it back at him with
interest.

Sex is only for procreation - period! If you are into it for any other
reason than that, then you are vile and degenerate - and may the Devil take
you!

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
Alistair Gunn
2006-06-17 09:36:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Raven
I guess then, Alan, that in matters pertaining to his groin only Ed is
involved ;-)
Damn, you beat me to that comment! <grins>
--
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...
Tony Raven
2006-06-17 10:47:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alistair Gunn
Post by Tony Raven
I guess then, Alan, that in matters pertaining to his groin only Ed is
involved ;-)
Damn, you beat me to that comment! <grins>
And it seems from his subsequent description he doesn't even know where
his groin is ;-)
--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci
Edward Dolan
2006-06-18 07:15:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Raven
Post by Alistair Gunn
Post by Tony Raven
I guess then, Alan, that in matters pertaining to his groin only Ed is
involved ;-)
Damn, you beat me to that comment! <grins>
And it seems from his subsequent description he doesn't even know where
his groin is ;-)
I advised Tony Raven in previous message to try to find his asshole since
that is what his essential nature is all about. But he is fixated on his
genitals. This is very funny indeed as the entire world knows that the
English are only fit to be cuckolded, usually by a Frenchman. I urge Tony
Raven to hurry and find his asshole so he can thereby know his true nature.
It is all about being an asshole, not a stud.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
Simon Brooke
2006-06-15 07:01:39 UTC
Permalink
Edward Dolan
2006-06-15 20:45:55 UTC
Permalink
"Simon Brooke" <***@jasmine.org.uk> wrote in message news:j7d7m3-***@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...

[newsgroups restored]
[...]
Post by Edward Dolan
Post by wafflycat
Are you male? If so - check in your underwear. Your bollocks are the
dangly objects behind & either side of your err... dangly bit in the
middle ;-)
Here is Helen of the UK behaving like the slut that she is. God, would
you want to know someone like this for any other purpose than fucking
her.
Don't you just /know/ that if you let colonials in on a discussion
they'll lower the tone? They don't even begin to understand the concept
of manners or even basic politesse. They are, in a word, uncouth. But
what can one expect, given that they live so far from civilisation?
It is Helen who behaves like a slut. The Great Ed Dolan is the world's
foremost gentleman - and a Great Scholar too. But everything about Me is
Great. Get used to it!

A woman who talks about matters of the groin on a public forum is beneath
contempt. Even a dumb Englishman should know at least that much.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
Simon Brooke
2006-06-16 06:41:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Dolan
[newsgroups restored]
[...]
Post by Edward Dolan
Post by wafflycat
Are you male? If so - check in your underwear. Your bollocks are the
dangly objects behind & either side of your err... dangly bit in the
middle ;-)
Here is Helen of the UK behaving like the slut that she is. God,
would you want to know someone like this for any other purpose than
fucking her.
Don't you just /know/ that if you let colonials in on a discussion
they'll lower the tone? They don't even begin to understand the
concept of manners or even basic politesse. They are, in a word,
uncouth. But what can one expect, given that they live so far from
civilisation?
It is Helen who behaves like a slut. The Great Ed Dolan is the world's
foremost gentleman - and a Great Scholar too. But everything about Me
is Great. Get used to it!
A woman who talks about matters of the groin on a public forum is
beneath contempt. Even a dumb Englishman should know at least that
much.
So sad. So sad. The soi-disant 'Great Scholar'. Had he had an education,
he might have known something of geography. Ignorance is, after all, not
the fault of the ignorant.
--
***@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; how did we conclude that a fucking cartoon mouse is deserving
;; of 90+ years of protection, but a cure for cancer, only 14?
-- user 'Tackhead', in /. discussion of copyright law, 22/05/02
Edward Dolan
2006-06-16 22:11:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Brooke
Post by Edward Dolan
[newsgroups restored]
[...]
Post by Edward Dolan
Post by wafflycat
Are you male? If so - check in your underwear. Your bollocks are the
dangly objects behind & either side of your err... dangly bit in the
middle ;-)
Here is Helen of the UK behaving like the slut that she is. God,
would you want to know someone like this for any other purpose than
fucking her.
Don't you just /know/ that if you let colonials in on a discussion
they'll lower the tone? They don't even begin to understand the
concept of manners or even basic politesse. They are, in a word,
uncouth. But what can one expect, given that they live so far from
civilisation?
It is Helen who behaves like a slut. The Great Ed Dolan is the world's
foremost gentleman - and a Great Scholar too. But everything about Me
is Great. Get used to it!
A woman who talks about matters of the groin on a public forum is
beneath contempt. Even a dumb Englishman should know at least that
much.
So sad. So sad. The soi-disant 'Great Scholar'. Had he had an education,
he might have known something of geography. Ignorance is, after all, not
the fault of the ignorant.
I know from previous posting that Helen is from the UK. But even if I didn't
know that, I could assume as much since all the English have her peculiar
vulgarity. They think it is cool to get down and dirty. This is what comes
of going the Protestant route. The English need to go next door to Catholic
Ireland in order to clear their minds of Anglican smut.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
Simon Brooke
2006-06-19 08:45:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Dolan
Post by Simon Brooke
Post by Edward Dolan
[...]
Post by Edward Dolan
Post by wafflycat
Are you male? If so - check in your underwear. Your bollocks are
the dangly objects behind & either side of your err... dangly bit
in the middle ;-)
Here is Helen of the UK behaving like the slut that she is. God,
would you want to know someone like this for any other purpose than
fucking her.
Don't you just /know/ that if you let colonials in on a discussion
they'll lower the tone? They don't even begin to understand the
concept of manners or even basic politesse. They are, in a word,
uncouth. But what can one expect, given that they live so far from
civilisation?
It is Helen who behaves like a slut. The Great Ed Dolan is the
world's foremost gentleman - and a Great Scholar too. But everything
about Me is Great. Get used to it!
A woman who talks about matters of the groin on a public forum is
beneath contempt. Even a dumb Englishman should know at least that
much.
So sad. So sad. The soi-disant 'Great Scholar'. Had he had an
education, he might have known something of geography. Ignorance is,
after all, not the fault of the ignorant.
I know from previous posting that Helen is from the UK.
Yes, dear boy, and so am I. But it was I whom you accused of being
English. I would have taken that as an insult were I not aware that it
was merely an expression of your ignorance and lack of education, and
not of malice.

Heaven, indeed, forfend that anyone should accuse you of malice.
--
***@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Generally Not Used
;; Except by Middle Aged Computer Scientists
Edward Dolan
2006-06-20 18:07:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Brooke
Post by Edward Dolan
Post by Simon Brooke
Post by Edward Dolan
[...]
Post by Edward Dolan
Post by wafflycat
Are you male? If so - check in your underwear. Your bollocks are
the dangly objects behind & either side of your err... dangly bit
in the middle ;-)
Here is Helen of the UK behaving like the slut that she is. God,
would you want to know someone like this for any other purpose than
fucking her.
Don't you just /know/ that if you let colonials in on a discussion
they'll lower the tone? They don't even begin to understand the
concept of manners or even basic politesse. They are, in a word,
uncouth. But what can one expect, given that they live so far from
civilisation?
It is Helen who behaves like a slut. The Great Ed Dolan is the
world's foremost gentleman - and a Great Scholar too. But everything
about Me is Great. Get used to it!
A woman who talks about matters of the groin on a public forum is
beneath contempt. Even a dumb Englishman should know at least that
much.
So sad. So sad. The soi-disant 'Great Scholar'. Had he had an
education, he might have known something of geography. Ignorance is,
after all, not the fault of the ignorant.
I know from previous posting that Helen is from the UK.
Yes, dear boy, and so am I. But it was I whom you accused of being
English. I would have taken that as an insult were I not aware that it
was merely an expression of your ignorance and lack of education, and
not of malice.
Heaven, indeed, forfend that anyone should accuse you of malice.
Simon Brooke needed to address my point about what to think of a woman like
Helen who resorts to smutty comments about men's groins on a public forum.
Instead, he is off into his own little world like all the English. But in
any event, he should know that someone with an Irish name like mine is NOT
going to like the English whether smutty or not.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
Simon Brooke
2006-06-20 19:39:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Dolan
Post by Simon Brooke
Post by Edward Dolan
I know from previous posting that Helen is from the UK.
Yes, dear boy, and so am I. But it was I whom you accused of being
English. I would have taken that as an insult were I not aware that it
was merely an expression of your ignorance and lack of education, and
not of malice.
Heaven, indeed, forfend that anyone should accuse you of malice.
Simon Brooke needed to address my point about what to think of a woman
like Helen who resorts to smutty comments about men's groins on a
public forum. Instead, he is off into his own little world like all the
English.
That's the second time you've accused me of being English. I find it
grossly offensive. I've already corrected you once, so you no longer
have the excuse of ignorance. I don't go around calling you Canadian or
Mexican.
--
***@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; may contain traces of nuts, bolts or washers.
Edward Dolan
2006-06-20 21:31:37 UTC
Permalink
"Simon Brooke" <***@jasmine.org.uk> wrote in message news:8hvlm3-***@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...

[newsgroups restored]
Post by Simon Brooke
Post by Edward Dolan
Post by Simon Brooke
Post by Edward Dolan
I know from previous posting that Helen is from the UK.
Yes, dear boy, and so am I. But it was I whom you accused of being
English. I would have taken that as an insult were I not aware that it
was merely an expression of your ignorance and lack of education, and
not of malice.
Heaven, indeed, forfend that anyone should accuse you of malice.
Simon Brooke needed to address my point about what to think of a woman
like Helen who resorts to smutty comments about men's groins on a
public forum. Instead, he is off into his own little world like all the
English.
That's the second time you've accused me of being English. I find it
grossly offensive. I've already corrected you once, so you no longer
have the excuse of ignorance. I don't go around calling you Canadian or
Mexican.
But I am not posting from Canada or Mexico. I am posting from Minnesota
which means I am an American. You are posting from the UK and you sure as
hell have an English looking name. You are English all right, but I
understand it you do not want to own up to it. After all, Britain is no
longer Great, having been reduced to a tiny Kingdom by the Sea as the result
of two recent European civil wars (W.W.I and W.W.II).

However, it is possible that Simon Brooke is not his real name and he is
really a Muslim from the Middle East since England is now being overrun by
the flotsam and the jetsam of the world. But he has chosen an English name
and so that is how I shall treat him - with the contempt that he so richly
deserves.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
Simon Brooke
2006-06-21 11:06:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Dolan
[newsgroups restored]
Post by Simon Brooke
Post by Edward Dolan
Simon Brooke needed to address my point about what to think of a
woman like Helen who resorts to smutty comments about men's groins on
a public forum. Instead, he is off into his own little world like all
the English.
That's the second time you've accused me of being English. I find it
grossly offensive. I've already corrected you once, so you no longer
have the excuse of ignorance. I don't go around calling you Canadian
or Mexican.
But I am not posting from Canada or Mexico. I am posting from Minnesota
which means I am an American.
And I am posting from Scotland which means I am...?

Come on, laddie, you're surely not /that/ stupid or ignorant?
--
***@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

There are no messages. The above is just a random stream of
bytes. Any opinion or meaning you find in it is your own creation.
Edward Dolan
2006-06-21 20:41:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Brooke
Post by Edward Dolan
[newsgroups restored]
Post by Simon Brooke
Post by Edward Dolan
Simon Brooke needed to address my point about what to think of a
woman like Helen who resorts to smutty comments about men's groins on
a public forum. Instead, he is off into his own little world like all
the English.
That's the second time you've accused me of being English. I find it
grossly offensive. I've already corrected you once, so you no longer
have the excuse of ignorance. I don't go around calling you Canadian
or Mexican.
But I am not posting from Canada or Mexico. I am posting from Minnesota
which means I am an American.
And I am posting from Scotland which means I am...?
Come on, laddie, you're surely not /that/ stupid or ignorant?
Well, the Scottish are a great improvement on the English I must admit since
they are essentially Celtic like the Irish. However, the Scotch are a
difficult people, but I suppose the same could be said for the Irish. We
shall have a drink some day together perhaps and curse the English like they
deserve to be cursed. I will track down Tony Raven and beat him about head
for being the obdurate Englishman that he is.

As much as I hate the French, the one good thing that can be said about them
is that they hate the English almost as much as you and I do.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

PS. Really like the way you edit a post Brooke. Shows you at least have a
brain, unlike most other members of these freaking newsgroups.

JimmyMac
2006-06-19 18:18:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Dolan
[newsgroups restored]
[...]
Post by Edward Dolan
Post by wafflycat
Are you male? If so - check in your underwear. Your bollocks are the
dangly objects behind & either side of your err... dangly bit in the
middle ;-)
Here is Helen of the UK behaving like the slut that she is. God, would
you want to know someone like this for any other purpose than fucking
her.
Don't you just /know/ that if you let colonials in on a discussion
they'll lower the tone? They don't even begin to understand the concept
of manners or even basic politesse. They are, in a word, uncouth. But
what can one expect, given that they live so far from civilisation?
It is Helen who behaves like a slut. The Great Ed Dolan is the world's
foremost gentleman - and a Great Scholar too. But everything about Me is
Great. Get used to it!
... and, I quote. "would you want to know someone like this for any
other purpose than fucking her." Are these the words of a gentleman?
Is it any wonder that people like you have earned us the title ... The
Ugly American?

Jimn McNamara
Post by Edward Dolan
A woman who talks about matters of the groin on a public forum is beneath
contempt. Even a dumb Englishman should know at least that much.
Regards,
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
Edward Dolan
2006-06-20 18:11:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by JimmyMac
Post by Edward Dolan
[newsgroups restored]
[...]
Post by Edward Dolan
Post by wafflycat
Are you male? If so - check in your underwear. Your bollocks are the
dangly objects behind & either side of your err... dangly bit in the
middle ;-)
Here is Helen of the UK behaving like the slut that she is. God, would
you want to know someone like this for any other purpose than fucking
her.
Don't you just /know/ that if you let colonials in on a discussion
they'll lower the tone? They don't even begin to understand the concept
of manners or even basic politesse. They are, in a word, uncouth. But
what can one expect, given that they live so far from civilisation?
It is Helen who behaves like a slut. The Great Ed Dolan is the world's
foremost gentleman - and a Great Scholar too. But everything about Me is
Great. Get used to it!
... and, I quote. "would you want to know someone like this for any
other purpose than fucking her." Are these the words of a gentleman?
Is it any wonder that people like you have earned us the title ... The
Ugly American?
Everything is tit for tat with me. Behave yourself and I will behave myself.
Act like a scoundrel and I will one-up you.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
Post by JimmyMac
Post by Edward Dolan
A woman who talks about matters of the groin on a public forum is beneath
contempt. Even a dumb Englishman should know at least that much.
j***@yahoo.com
2006-06-21 15:23:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Dolan
Post by JimmyMac
Post by Edward Dolan
[newsgroups restored]
[...]
Post by Edward Dolan
Post by wafflycat
Are you male? If so - check in your underwear. Your bollocks are the
dangly objects behind & either side of your err... dangly bit in the
middle ;-)
Here is Helen of the UK behaving like the slut that she is. God, would
you want to know someone like this for any other purpose than fucking
her.
Don't you just /know/ that if you let colonials in on a discussion
they'll lower the tone? They don't even begin to understand the concept
of manners or even basic politesse. They are, in a word, uncouth. But
what can one expect, given that they live so far from civilisation?
It is Helen who behaves like a slut. The Great Ed Dolan is the world's
foremost gentleman - and a Great Scholar too. But everything about Me is
Great. Get used to it!
... and, I quote. "would you want to know someone like this for any
other purpose than fucking her." Are these the words of a gentleman?
Is it any wonder that people like you have earned us the title ... The
Ugly American?
Everything is tit for tat with me. Behave yourself and I will behave myself.
Act like a scoundrel and I will one-up you.
We all thank you for your frank admisiion and demonstration of your
lack of maturity.
Post by Edward Dolan
Regards,
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
Post by JimmyMac
Post by Edward Dolan
A woman who talks about matters of the groin on a public forum is beneath
contempt. Even a dumb Englishman should know at least that much.
Jim Price
2006-06-14 21:05:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@innercite.com
I wish you Europeans would stop using lingo that we Americans don't
understand!
What, even in a UK newsgroup? Dooby sirius!
Try uk.rec.sheds - its all explained there.
Post by f***@innercite.com
All right, would somebody please explain the difference
between bollards and bollocks?
You know when Americans say "shoot", well its a similar sort of idea.
Unless it's street furniture and cobblers.

Levverige your synergy, or whatever it is you guys say ;)
--
JimP

" " - John Cage
Alan Braggins
2006-06-15 08:51:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Price
Post by f***@innercite.com
I wish you Europeans would stop using lingo that we Americans don't
understand!
What, even in a UK newsgroup? Dooby sirius!
Look at the Newsgroups line. This thread is not only in a UK newsgroup.
Jim Price
2006-06-15 13:20:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Braggins
Post by Jim Price
Post by f***@innercite.com
I wish you Europeans would stop using lingo that we Americans don't
understand!
What, even in a UK newsgroup? Dooby sirius!
.........^^^^
Post by Alan Braggins
Look at the Newsgroups line. This thread is not only in a UK newsgroup.
Didn't get the joke then. Check for smiley. The poster was not specific
about whether he was referring exclusively to newsgroups, and anyway
neither newsgroup is an only US newsgroup.

Maybe I should have rolled over and said "well well well, lovely old job
I dare say, I'll knock it on the 'ead then guvnor, an' tell the ovver
Europeans (at the top of my voice, so they unnerstand, like, wot wiv
them speakin' forrin 'n' all) that they orta speak US Engerlish too". ;)

Vive la difference!

IGMC
--
JimP

SOWISE - Snot oomerous when I splain's em.
Dave Larrington
2006-06-15 11:04:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by the.Mark
I've not tipped mine yet, no doubt it'll happen sometime. Sadly not
for a few weeks as it has been packed away while the extension is
being built and there is no way to get it out.
I've only managed to get the Trice XXL on two wheels once, and that by
accident - looking over my right shoulder to check whether the road I'd
just passed was "2nd R Hoe Lane" while negotiating a downhill left-
hander (it wasn't). That's unless you count hitting a speed hump with
the right wheel while doing 70 km/h. Scary, that.

I /did/ manage to roll the Windcheetah by overshifting at the back.
Chain into rear wheel, lock up, skid, flip, slide down bus lane outside
Holloway Prison wearing trike for a hat. TWFKAML markedly
unsympathetic, asking only whether Christmas-present-from-in-laws jersey
was damaged (it wasn't).
--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
Drugs are good, except when they kill you.
Ian Smith
2006-06-14 17:43:03 UTC
Permalink
["Followup-To:" header set to uk.rec.cycling.]
Post by Alistair Gunn
Post by Artemisia
Do you fall out at every bend (I heard of someone in Cambridge who did,
though that was an upright trike)?
I had a go on a whole bunch of last years (so no rear suspension and
non-foldable) models at the York Cycle Rally last year. I managed to get
a Trice Monster up on two wheels (on purpose I'll concede, I deliberately
leaned slightly the wrong way in a turn!) at about 15mph but it didn't
seem in anyway scary -> just more a case of thinking "hmm, the inside
wheel's lifting ... I'd better lean into the corner a bit".
I ride an XL NT, which is one of the lower trices, though it has a
slightly narrower track, so is slightly less stable.

It's reasonably easy to lift the inside wheel on a turn, but it's
never surprised me - it all happens quite progressively and you just
shift your weight a bit and back down it goes. In fact, the last
sharp bend before home on my evening commute has a pothole on the apex
of the bend, and I gain strange satisfaction from gliding over it with
the wheel neither dropping in nor lifting off the line of where the
road surface would be - it's very easy to get a feel for what the
weight on the wheels is doing.

As Alistair says, you can also lift a wheel deliberately if you want -
turn and lean the 'wrong' way. For some reason, having lifted the
right wheel, I can ride pretty much indefinitely on two wheels
leaning left (a bit over a mile is probably the furthest I've done -
but then I ran out of traffic-free road), but I can't ride on just the
right and back wheel - though I haven't tried all that hard.

Regarding falling out - only once, when doing handbrake turns on ice
and running out of ice.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|
wafflycat
2006-06-14 15:32:51 UTC
Permalink
Bored over this past weekend, I started googling on recumbents, and became
fascinated by some folding recumbent trikes, made by ICE.
Ah yes, the Dark Side is calling to you. Resistance is futile.
I have an IceT, albeit it not the folding one. Saying that, it has been
transported in the back of Herman the German (Merc A-class)
It seems really cool to be able to watch the world go by from what looks
like a deck chair! And always to have a comfortable seat on one's travels.
But still to be getting exercise, and my abdos sure could use some
firming.
I do refer to Mr Norbert Frosty as my mobile deck chair.
And then there's all that stability, think of actually being able to look
behind me or take my hands off handlebars to signal!
And I like the terminology. "Bent" suits me fine, as does "Dark Side".
The Dark Side is definitely calling...
So I want to know what's wrong with them (apart from cost and weight, of
course). I'm puzzled by these handlebars under the seat. How do you turn a
recumbent trike? Do you fall out at every bend (I heard of someone in
Cambridge who did, though that was an upright trike)?
My Ice T is incredibly stable round corners. The low centre of gravity makes
cornering fun - you can pedal into and accerlate round corners. Small
turning circle too. The sterring is very, very light - I can steer Mr
Norbert Frosty with one finger of one hand.
Is it very hard to get up hills? I live in a hilly district. Can they get
through doors or between bollards?
Slower but easier to get up hills than on my uprights. Slower as it's
heavier. Easier because you can't pedal so slowly that you fall off...

I can get mine through 'normal' doorways but bollards - depends on spacing.
I'm not that much of a speed freak, so the fact that all the speed records
for human powered vehicles are held by faired bents is not of immediate
concern. I'm more afraid of not being able to control the vehicle beyond a
certain speed. But then it seems they are easier to brake?
Braking is a doddle - Norbert has drum brakes on the front wheels - very
smooth, very sure braking.
Maintenance could be a hassle. I've never seen a bent in France. My
colleague tells me she has only ever seen them under circus clowns.
Very little maintenance. Norbert is just kept clean. No hassle. Your
colleague's prejudice is showing ;-)
I'm divided on the image issue. I have a reputation as a nut-case which
I'm keen to keep up, but France is a nation very hostile to script
breakers and I'm limit as it is with my Childfreedom. A bent on a _French_
road might get more attention than I really want. Besides which, it might
even interest the police - it seems the status of tricycles is ambiguous
here and according to some opinions they are not allowed on roads.
Moreover, some of those bents really do look uncomfortably like
wheel-chairs, and my superstitious side would feel it unlucky to send out
a signal of being disabled.
I've stopped the traffic in Dereham, had fingers pointed at me...

As for unlucky - I get more room given to me by motorists when I'm on my
'bent than when on any of my 'normal' bikes.
The use that most draws me would be for long distance touring, but for
that, the contraption would have to be portable and planeable. I
discovered, when touring with Flyzipper, that I give up after about 35km
not so much because I am tired, as because I start getting sore at seat
and wrist. They say this doesn't happen on bents. On a more daily basis,
it is probably less practical than my beloved bike for local commuting?
Although I do like the idea of being able to sit out the traffic lights,
sunning myself or reading Trollope.
Norbert is very easy on my wrists. I haven't taken Norbert on a plane. I'm
reluctant to take any of my steeds on aircraft.

Practicality...

Well... if I had to get rid of my stable and keep only one steed... let's
see

Road bike
Tourer
Hybrid
'bent trike

I'd keep the bent. Seriously. Even though I'm slower on the 'bent - I'd keep
it. Why? In winter it's much more stable on slippy roads. You can't fall off
it going uphill. If you want you can stop - put on the parking brake & take
a breather.

You do *need* clipless pedals though. Feet need to be firmly attached to
pedals. However, you don't have to unclip before stopping to prevent you
falling off.
I'd be keen to try such a machine and see how it feels. I doubt that would
be possible here, but is there somewhere in the Southern UK where I might
come for a test ride? I'd particularly like to be able to rent one for a
while to see about how liveable it is all around.
If you come to Norfolk you are welcome to give Mr Norbert Frosty a go.
Finally, what are people's opinions here of what constitutes essentials as
well as nec plus ultra luxuries in a bent trike? What are dream machines
in this category? Mine would have to have a good rack system for luggage,
be easily foldable, have very reliable brakes, why not hydraulic discs,
have a good gear range and easy shifting, perhaps a Rohloff, perhaps have
modular electric assist that can be added or subtracted as needs develop
or disappear...
Norbert came with a rack. Reliable brakes included too. Plenty of gears (24
last time I looked on Norbert, which is entirely sufficent). The only extras
I've added is I've put a Minoura Space Bar on the front to carry two front
lights and I've got various rear lights dotted about. Ice T currently £1599
which is roughly 2300 Euros.
At the moment I'm only dreaming, so I'm not even thinking about price. I
suppose up to about $5000, but too much more would cost me the sacrifice
of too many vacations.
Not as expensive as you think...
EFR
Ile de France
Cheers, helen s
Peter Clinch
2006-06-15 07:45:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by wafflycat
You do *need* clipless pedals though. Feet need to be firmly attached to
pedals.
I'd say that's an overstatement. I reserve "need" for things like
wheels and transmission, it /is/ possible to happily power a 'bent trike
without clipless pedals, and people are out there doing it as proof.

I would personally /recommend/ clipless for any 'bent with a high-ish
bottom bracket relative to seat, but they're not *necessary*.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net ***@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
Ambrose Nankivell
2006-06-15 10:07:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Clinch
Post by wafflycat
You do *need* clipless pedals though. Feet need to be firmly attached to
pedals.
I'd say that's an overstatement. I reserve "need" for things like
wheels and transmission, it /is/ possible to happily power a 'bent trike
without clipless pedals, and people are out there doing it as proof.
I would personally /recommend/ clipless for any 'bent with a high-ish
bottom bracket relative to seat, but they're not *necessary*.
Surely if there's nothing under the BB to catch your feet if they slip, you
need clipless to avoid leg suck, which can be rather nasty on a trike, I
guess.

A
Peter Clinch
2006-06-15 10:22:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ambrose Nankivell
Surely if there's nothing under the BB to catch your feet if they slip, you
need clipless to avoid leg suck, which can be rather nasty on a trike, I
guess.
If you /need/ it, that implies anyone without who's ever had a foot slip
off the pedal has had their feet sucked under. I very much doubt this
is a universal case, so I retain the view that *needing* clipless is an
overstatement, even though I would suggest it.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net ***@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
John B
2006-06-15 10:22:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Clinch
Post by wafflycat
You do *need* clipless pedals though. Feet need to be firmly attached to
pedals.
I'd say that's an overstatement. I reserve "need" for things like
wheels and transmission, it /is/ possible to happily power a 'bent trike
without clipless pedals, and people are out there doing it as proof.
Yes, of course its "possible' , but definintely not advisable.
It is extremely risky if the feet slip off the pedals and the lower legs get
caught by the cross bar. 'SNAP'.
Post by Peter Clinch
I would personally /recommend/ clipless for any 'bent with a high-ish
bottom bracket relative to seat, but they're not *necessary*.
I would highly recommend some form of foot restraint for *any* 'bent trike
where there is a risk of the feet dropping to the ground.

John B
Artemisia
2006-06-15 10:58:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Clinch
Post by wafflycat
You do *need* clipless pedals though. Feet need to be firmly attached
to pedals.
I would personally /recommend/ clipless for any 'bent with a high-ish
bottom bracket relative to seat, but they're not *necessary*.
Clipless does sound like it could be a drawback, as it implies special
shoes, which in turn implies extra luggage and further problems on those
ghastly cobblestones.

OTOH, for me at least that would be a conclusive argument against a
recumbent _bike_, since I could expect to topple out at every stop.

EFR
Who couldn't even manage miniclips in Ile de France
Peter Clinch
2006-06-15 11:11:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Artemisia
Clipless does sound like it could be a drawback, as it implies special
shoes, which in turn implies extra luggage and further problems on those
ghastly cobblestones.
You can find shoes/sandals that are quite resonable for general use
during a tour. Our week long Northern Scotland tour in summer 2004 I
didn't take any footwear apart from my SPuD sandals.
Post by Artemisia
OTOH, for me at least that would be a conclusive argument against a
recumbent _bike_, since I could expect to topple out at every stop.
Less of an issue on a bike than a tadpole trike though. If you're on a
reasonably high 'bent bike then you'd really have to /try/ in order to
suffer from leg-suck. I routinely go down bumpy stuff on the
Streetmachine deliberately unclipped, as the height of the seat and lack
of a forward crossbar to run your foot over simply make it a non-issue.
On a compact like the HP Velotechnik Spirit standard pedals wouldn't
offer any problem at all, I'd think.
A delta trike with a relatively high seat like the Hase Ketweisel or
Lepus would be relatively hard to destroy your feet on in this way too,
and would work better than a Trice with normal pedals IMHO. See
http://kinetics.org.uk/html/hase.shtml for more details.
Post by Artemisia
Who couldn't even manage miniclips in Ile de France
Pedal clips are quite a bit harder to get both in and out of than
locking "clipless" systems like SPuDs, though they're certainly not for
everyone.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net ***@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
Artemisia
2006-06-15 11:27:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Clinch
A delta trike with a relatively high seat like the Hase Ketweisel or
Lepus would be relatively hard to destroy your feet on in this way too,
and would work better than a Trice with normal pedals IMHO. See
http://kinetics.org.uk/html/hase.shtml for more details.
Thanks for the link. More things to drool over past my lunch hour! ;°>

So what are the relative advantages of "tadpole" and "delta"
architectures? I gather that deltas steer more easily; if so, then why
tadpole?

EFR
Ile de France
Peter Clinch
2006-06-15 12:12:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Artemisia
So what are the relative advantages of "tadpole" and "delta"
architectures? I gather that deltas steer more easily; if so, then why
tadpole?
Steering will be very much down to the particular implementation, rather
than necessarily better on one or the other. The tadpoles I've ridden
(HPVel Scorpion and a Windcheetah) weren't in any particularly obvious
sense hard to steer.

A tadpole into a corner at speed will tend to have weight thrown over
the outside front wheel, rather than empty space, so with all else equal
they should corner a bit better at speed. Though as stated before, as
long as you bother to lean into the bend it shouldn't be a problem.

The transmission on a tadpole is simpler as you have one central driven
wheel. On a delta you either have one wheel transmission (like the
basic Kettwiesel, which is right hand drive) or you need a differential
(as on the Kettwiesel Ride), or you do a poor job on it!

It's not so much that the Kettweisel is a delta as its particular layout
and setup, but with left and right brakes with the rider right over the
axle, you get /enormous/ brake steer: use both together or you'll change
direction! This can make deliberate handbrake turns good fun, but it
might be an issue for, say, signalling nd braking together. Well
developed tadpoles like the Trice have practically no brake steer.

As usual with most recumbents, getting hung up over the particular
configuration is something a lot of people do but for not much gain.
Shortlist a selection of anything that seems it /might/ do your job and
test ride, and *then* decide. Decisions based on paper to choose
something you've little or no experience of aren't necessarily going to
be sound.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net ***@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
Alan Braggins
2006-06-15 13:27:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Clinch
Post by Artemisia
So what are the relative advantages of "tadpole" and "delta"
architectures? I gather that deltas steer more easily; if so, then why
tadpole?
Steering will be very much down to the particular implementation, rather
than necessarily better on one or the other. The tadpoles I've ridden
(HPVel Scorpion and a Windcheetah) weren't in any particularly obvious
sense hard to steer.
A Kettwiesel can be turned in practically its own length by turning the
front wheel at very nearly 90 degrees (possibly even at 90 degrees so
long as the drive wheel is on the outside of the turn), which you can't
do with a tadpole. That's a very special case of "steer more easily" though,
and not often relevent.
Peter Clinch
2006-06-15 13:56:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Braggins
A Kettwiesel can be turned in practically its own length by turning the
front wheel at very nearly 90 degrees (possibly even at 90 degrees so
long as the drive wheel is on the outside of the turn), which you can't
do with a tadpole. That's a very special case of "steer more easily" though,
and not often relevent.
And it only works at practically zero speed. OTOH, what works at
/higher/ speed is jamming on one of the brakes but not the other and
doing the cycling equivalent of a handbrake turn! ;-) Doesn't work on a
Trice as they've rather boringly and quite deliberately worked on it so
that sort of thing doesn't happen. Bah!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net ***@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
Dave Larrington
2006-06-15 14:05:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Clinch
And it only works at practically zero speed. OTOH, what works at
/higher/ speed is jamming on one of the brakes but not the other and
doing the cycling equivalent of a handbrake turn! ;-) Doesn't work on a
Trice as they've rather boringly and quite deliberately worked on it so
that sort of thing doesn't happen. Bah!
They do a bit. Not much, but enough to make the approach to a downhill
right-hander a tad unnerving when only the left brake is working.

Guess how I know this :-(
--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
A *National* Socialist Government did you say, Mr. Chaplin?
Alan Braggins
2006-06-15 16:00:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Clinch
Post by Alan Braggins
A Kettwiesel can be turned in practically its own length by turning the
front wheel at very nearly 90 degrees (possibly even at 90 degrees so
long as the drive wheel is on the outside of the turn), which you can't
do with a tadpole. That's a very special case of "steer more easily" though,
and not often relevent.
And it only works at practically zero speed.
So does a 3-point turn, or getting off and lifting it up, which are the
typical alternatives in the sort of situation where that sort of turn
is really useful.
Post by Peter Clinch
OTOH, what works at
/higher/ speed is jamming on one of the brakes but not the other and
doing the cycling equivalent of a handbrake turn! ;-) Doesn't work on a
Trice as they've rather boringly and quite deliberately worked on it so
that sort of thing doesn't happen. Bah!
Doesn't a KMX do that sort of thing, if you want a brake-steer tadpole?
Peter Clinch
2006-06-16 07:46:55 UTC
Permalink
Alan Braggins wrote:

[handbrake turns]
Post by Alan Braggins
Doesn't a KMX do that sort of thing, if you want a brake-steer tadpole?
Don't know, but what makes it work /incredibly/ well on the Kett is the
way the rider's weight is really close to the back axle, so you're
spinning around close to the centre of mass of the whole kit and kaboodle.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net ***@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
Ian Smith
2006-06-15 19:21:13 UTC
Permalink
["Followup-To:" header set to uk.rec.cycling.]
Post by Peter Clinch
Post by Alan Braggins
A Kettwiesel can be turned in practically its own length
And it only works at practically zero speed. OTOH, what works at
/higher/ speed is jamming on one of the brakes but not the other and
doing the cycling equivalent of a handbrake turn! ;-) Doesn't work on a
Trice as they've rather boringly and quite deliberately worked on it so
that sort of thing doesn't happen. Bah!
It does for me. Have you tried it?

Get a decent speed up, lean well forward (get you body over the cross
bar) and brake hard on one wheel. I find that wheel locks, the other
rolls, and teh bike slices round 'till you're facing about 90 degrees
from where you were. If you still have any speed at this point it
becomes a bit dicey, but I haven't killed myself yet.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|
David Martin
2006-06-15 14:45:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Clinch
Post by Artemisia
So what are the relative advantages of "tadpole" and "delta"
architectures? I gather that deltas steer more easily; if so, then why
tadpole?
Steering will be very much down to the particular implementation, rather
than necessarily better on one or the other. The tadpoles I've ridden
(HPVel Scorpion and a Windcheetah) weren't in any particularly obvious
sense hard to steer.
Though if you are not used to the steering on a Windcheetah and try
stonking it hard (across the meadows at the last EIHPV meet) there is
a certain point where your pedal stroke and the steering resonate - as
Jon Senior and I found out at about the same time side by side.
Post by Peter Clinch
A tadpole into a corner at speed will tend to have weight thrown over
the outside front wheel, rather than empty space, so with all else equal
they should corner a bit better at speed. Though as stated before, as
long as you bother to lean into the bend it shouldn't be a problem.
And it can be lots of fun ;-)

..d
Simon Brooke
2006-06-15 12:17:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Artemisia
Post by Peter Clinch
A delta trike with a relatively high seat like the Hase Ketweisel or
Lepus would be relatively hard to destroy your feet on in this way too,
and would work better than a Trice with normal pedals IMHO. See
http://kinetics.org.uk/html/hase.shtml for more details.
Thanks for the link. More things to drool over past my lunch hour! ;°>
So what are the relative advantages of "tadpole" and "delta"
architectures? I gather that deltas steer more easily; if so, then why
tadpole?
The tadpole is a lot more stable when braking. It also makes the
drive-train much simpler.
--
***@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Just as defying the law of gravity through building aircraft requires
careful design and a lot of effort, so too does defying laws of
economics. It seems to be a deeply ingrained aspect of humanity to
forever strive to improve things, so unquestioning acceptance of a
free market system seems to me to be unnatural. ;; Charles Bryant
Ian Smith
2006-06-15 19:22:37 UTC
Permalink
["Followup-To:" header set to uk.rec.cycling.]
Post by Simon Brooke
Post by Artemisia
So what are the relative advantages of "tadpole" and "delta"
architectures? I gather that deltas steer more easily; if so, then why
tadpole?
The tadpole is a lot more stable when braking.
Lots more stable when stearing too. And lots^squared more stable when
stearing-and-braking.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|
wafflycat
2006-06-15 17:30:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Artemisia
Post by Peter Clinch
A delta trike with a relatively high seat like the Hase Ketweisel or
Lepus would be relatively hard to destroy your feet on in this way too,
and would work better than a Trice with normal pedals IMHO. See
http://kinetics.org.uk/html/hase.shtml for more details.
Thanks for the link. More things to drool over past my lunch hour! ;°>
So what are the relative advantages of "tadpole" and "delta"
architectures? I gather that deltas steer more easily; if so, then why
tadpole?
EFR
Ile de France
Depends on overall design, not whether one is tadpole or delta. My Ice T is
a tadpole design and the steering is incredibly easy and also steady and
sound. The steed goes where I want it to go easily and reliably. I can
literally steer it with one finger of each hand. It's a lovely beastie.

Cheers, helen s
Clive George
2006-06-15 11:18:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Artemisia
Who couldn't even manage miniclips in Ile de France
On a trike you've got forever to engage your clipless mechanism of choice,
since you can do it while sitting still.

And spds in sensible shoes/sandals are fine to walk in, even on cobbles.

cheers,
clive
Artemisia
2006-06-15 11:30:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Clive George
On a trike you've got forever to engage your clipless mechanism of
choice, since you can do it while sitting still.
And spds in sensible shoes/sandals are fine to walk in, even on cobbles.
What are spds?

EFR
Ile de France
Clive George
2006-06-15 11:47:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Artemisia
Post by Clive George
On a trike you've got forever to engage your clipless mechanism of
choice, since you can do it while sitting still.
And spds in sensible shoes/sandals are fine to walk in, even on cobbles.
What are spds?
Shimano SPD, one of the more popular clipless pedal mechanisms. It's aimed
at mountain bikers rather than roadies, so you can actually walk in the
shoes.
Post by Artemisia
So what are the relative advantages of "tadpole" and "delta" architectures?
I gather that deltas steer more easily; if so, then why tadpole?
Single wheel drive uses more normal bike bits. To me the shape of a low
tadpole looks right in the way that a delta doesn't - body low between the
wheels. Not at all sure about deltas steering more easily - my experience of
a Greenspeed GTT (tadpole tandem) was that steering was an absolute doddle.

I'd say you need to go and try them.

cheers,
clive
Tim Hall
2006-06-15 11:32:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Artemisia
Post by Peter Clinch
Post by wafflycat
You do *need* clipless pedals though. Feet need to be firmly attached
to pedals.
I would personally /recommend/ clipless for any 'bent with a high-ish
bottom bracket relative to seat, but they're not *necessary*.
Clipless does sound like it could be a drawback, as it implies special
shoes, which in turn implies extra luggage and further problems on those
ghastly cobblestones.
As others have said, you can get "normal" looking shoes/sandals that
work with clipless pedals.

On the other hand, on our semi recumbent tandem (front is recumbent,
rear is upright), I've fitted loops of shock cord (elasticated thin
rope) for my ever growing son to rest his heels in. We have short toe
clips as well, and this combination has proved very effective. It was
brought about by his feet slipping off the pedals, him tumbling to the
ground, nearly getting squashed by the tandem and breaking his collar
bone.


Tim
Alan Braggins
2006-06-15 13:21:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Artemisia
Post by Peter Clinch
Post by wafflycat
You do *need* clipless pedals though. Feet need to be firmly attached
to pedals.
I would personally /recommend/ clipless for any 'bent with a high-ish
bottom bracket relative to seat, but they're not *necessary*.
Clipless does sound like it could be a drawback, as it implies special
shoes, which in turn implies extra luggage and further problems on those
ghastly cobblestones.
OTOH, for me at least that would be a conclusive argument against a
recumbent _bike_, since I could expect to topple out at every stop.
On a bike, if your foot drops off the pedal it might hit the ground and be
dragged back, but your leg won't then be hit from behind by the crossbar
between the two front wheels of a tadpole trike.
And finding a bike that isn't "with a high-ish bottom bracket relative to
seat" is easier than finding a trike that isn't.

There are alternative methods of foot support available - on a trike you
can do up traditional clips without worrying about falling over if you
don't release them quick enough, or you could use something like the
"Pedals with hook" shown at:
http://www.hasebikes.com/ens/reha/index.php?show=zub&bike=reha
Dave Larrington
2006-06-15 14:07:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Braggins
On a bike, if your foot drops off the pedal it might hit the ground and be
dragged back, but your leg won't then be hit from behind by the crossbar
between the two front wheels of a tadpole trike.
And finding a bike that isn't "with a high-ish bottom bracket relative to
seat" is easier than finding a trike that isn't.
If one is unlucky, thobut, it can catch on the ground and get folded
under the leading edge of the seat. I have heard of a couple of borken
legs resulting from this kind of mishap.
--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
If you want a bicycle, buy a bicycle. If you want something that folds,
buy a deckchair.
Alistair Gunn
2006-06-15 14:39:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Artemisia
Clipless does sound like it could be a drawback, as it implies special
shoes, which in turn implies extra luggage and further problems on those
ghastly cobblestones.
Personally I've got a pair of Shimano MT90s, and other than their sole
being somewhat more rigid than normal shoes they're perfectly fine for
general walking about in (ie: they wouldn't be my first choice of shoe to
walking into town in, but it wouldn't be any problem to use them) :-

http://tinyurl.com/ql8se

As for pedals, for a trike I reckon I'd go with pedals that have a
clipless mechanism on one side and an ordinary flat on the other. I
currently use these on my Grasshopper, however for trike I'd probably add
powergripsto the flat side.

http://tinyurl.com/l8fab
--
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...
wafflycat
2006-06-15 17:28:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Artemisia
Post by Peter Clinch
Post by wafflycat
You do *need* clipless pedals though. Feet need to be firmly attached to
pedals.
I would personally /recommend/ clipless for any 'bent with a high-ish
bottom bracket relative to seat, but they're not *necessary*.
Clipless does sound like it could be a drawback, as it implies special
shoes, which in turn implies extra luggage and further problems on those
ghastly cobblestones.
No, clipless aren't a problem, as you can get shoes with cleats on sole
which are perfectly possible to walk normally in. There's millions of
cyclists around the globe doing just that :-)
Post by Artemisia
OTOH, for me at least that would be a conclusive argument against a
recumbent _bike_, since I could expect to topple out at every stop.
One of the many joys of my 'bent trike, Mr Norbert Frosty, is that you don't
have to remember to unclip before stopping, as being a trike, you stay
upright in one's mobile deckchair, in comfort, whether stationary or moving.

Cheers, helen s
Post by Artemisia
EFR
Who couldn't even manage miniclips in Ile de France
Mike Causer
2006-06-15 19:42:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by wafflycat
One of the many joys of my 'bent trike, Mr Norbert Frosty, is that you
don't have to remember to unclip before stopping, as being a trike, you
stay upright in one's mobile deckchair, in comfort, whether stationary or
moving.
The problem comes when you go back onto two wheels.

That's when you need teenage son behind shouting "Unclip Mum!". Or so
we've been told ;-)



Mike
wafflycat
2006-06-15 20:50:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Causer
Post by wafflycat
One of the many joys of my 'bent trike, Mr Norbert Frosty, is that you
don't have to remember to unclip before stopping, as being a trike, you
stay upright in one's mobile deckchair, in comfort, whether stationary or
moving.
The problem comes when you go back onto two wheels.
That's when you need teenage son behind shouting "Unclip Mum!". Or so
we've been told ;-)
Certainly he did do that when I was getting used to clipless :-)
Peter Clinch
2006-06-16 07:50:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Causer
The problem comes when you go back onto two wheels.
That's when you need teenage son behind shouting "Unclip Mum!". Or so
we've been told ;-)
I had the opposite problem... being used to a bike, when trying out the
Scorpion I automatically put a foot down as I came to rest (I'd not been
clipped in, not having the requisite clips). I hadn't /quite/ stopped,
and it was enough for a practical demo of leg suck's potential to really
hurt you... Just an "ouch" at that /almost/ zero speed, but slipping
off the pedals wouldn't typically cause it IMHO.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net ***@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
Alan Braggins
2006-06-16 11:01:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Causer
The problem comes when you go back onto two wheels.
That's when you need teenage son behind shouting "Unclip Mum!". Or so
we've been told ;-)
I've heard a similar story about a motorcyclist who slowly toppled
over at a red light. My friend (who Mike also knows, Dan W from Harston)
went to see if he was ok, and he explained that he'd been riding with a
sidecar for years, and just forgotten that he didn't have it that day....
Simon Brooke
2006-06-15 12:09:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Clinch
Post by wafflycat
You do *need* clipless pedals though. Feet need to be firmly attached
to pedals.
I'd say that's an overstatement. I reserve "need" for things like
wheels and transmission, it /is/ possible to happily power a 'bent
trike without clipless pedals, and people are out there doing it as
proof.
I would personally /recommend/ clipless for any 'bent with a high-ish
bottom bracket relative to seat, but they're not *necessary*.
On trikes, I gather that slippage of foot from pedal typically leads to a
very badly borken ankle. I'd suggest that implies the cleats are
*necessary*.
--
***@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Want to know what SCO stands for?
;; http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20030605
Peter Clinch
2006-06-15 13:52:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Brooke
On trikes, I gather that slippage of foot from pedal typically leads to a
very badly borken ankle. I'd suggest that implies the cleats are
*necessary*.
Only for values of "slip" where your foot hits the road and subsequently
gets run over. Since you're pushing /forwards/ and not down this will
require a degree of contrivance. Not unforseeable contrivance, granted.

My foot slipped off the pedal on Mark's Windcheetah (not that surprising
given his pedals and my sandals had different systems, and the whole
thing was too small for me). I didn't break (or scratch) an ankle...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net ***@dundee.ac.uk http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
Mike Causer
2006-06-15 13:32:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Clinch
I would personally /recommend/ clipless for any 'bent with a high-ish
bottom bracket relative to seat, but they're not *necessary*.
I find them necessary for any trip over a couple of km, simply because
my legs tire if only supported from the hips. This is on a bike with BB
higher than seat though. Perhaps if I'd always ridden 'bents without
clipping in I'd have developed the necessary thigh muscles to hold my legs
up, but as I've always used clips & straps (since 1961) or spd-alikes
(since 1997) I see no point.


Mike
Carol Hague
2006-06-18 11:51:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Clinch
Post by wafflycat
You do *need* clipless pedals though. Feet need to be firmly attached to
pedals.
I'd say that's an overstatement. I reserve "need" for things like
wheels and transmission, it /is/ possible to happily power a 'bent trike
without clipless pedals, and people are out there doing it as proof.
I've ridden my trike without clipless pedals, and it's certainly
entirely possible, but I wouldn't *choose* to do it.

Leg-suck aside, I found it much more effort to pedal without clipless -
after a mile or so my legs were aching.

Obviously everybody's different though, and some folk may be perfectly
comfy with flat pedals.
--
Carol
"Yes, the shags have eaten our camera, I'm afraid...."
Simon King on "Springwatch"
Rich
2006-06-14 22:34:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Artemisia
Is it very hard to get up hills? I live in a hilly district. Can they
get through doors or between bollards?
They're slow up hills. And slower then a bike in general (except
perhaps downhill).

But it's space that is the big downside, some get through doors, some
don't. And when riding, you take up more space on the road, although
people typically give me lots more space on my trike.

But they're alot of fun. Try one, you'll like it.

Rich
Dave Larrington
2006-06-15 11:04:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rich
They're slow up hills. And slower then a bike in general (except
perhaps downhill).
Definitely faster downhill. I even caught Dave Kahn on a descent
towards the end of last year's Stonehenge 200, though didn't have quite
enough hill to overtake. On a level road I can usually keep up with the
the majority of the average Audax field; on uphills even the loons
riding 104" fixed on Scenic events will drop me like a radioactive rock,
but when we get to the finish of a 400, it's not me complaining about a
sore arse :-)
Post by Rich
But it's space that is the big downside, some get through doors, some
don't. And when riding, you take up more space on the road, although
people typically give me lots more space on my trike.
When I had my new Shedde designed, I made sure The Architect specified
the larger of the two standard door sizes. This allows the trike in
without having to tip it to one side, though I do have to fold the
mirrors in.
--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
Three blind mice, see how they run. Is this /really/ the best way to
test shampoo?
Artemisia
2006-06-15 11:14:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Larrington
When I had my new Shedde designed, I made sure The Architect specified
the larger of the two standard door sizes. This allows the trike in
without having to tip it to one side, though I do have to fold the
mirrors in.
I'm horribly spoiled in that respect. I have 12 sq m of locked stall in
the underground garage of my residence, and of course no cage to take up
any of that space. Compensates for living in a skanky suburb rather than
one of those swooshy arrondissements where everyone reads Libération.

EFR
Ile de France
Steph Peters
2006-06-15 22:50:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Artemisia
I'd be keen to try such a machine and see how it feels. I doubt that
would be possible here, but is there somewhere in the Southern UK where
I might come for a test ride? I'd particularly like to be able to rent
one for a while to see about how liveable it is all around.
Some UK bent riders go to the Netherlands where bents are a lot more common.
Given that you are in Paris, that might well be a better choice than coming
to UK.
--
Steph Peters
Chorlton Wanderers Cycling Group
Monthly slow and easy rides from South Manchester
http://www.sandbenders.demon.co.uk/cycling/chwan.htm
Kevan Smith
2006-06-16 05:30:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steph Peters
Some UK bent riders go to the Netherlands where bents are a lot more common.
.... and they won't be seen riding on by their friends.
--
fneep
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